April 2, 2020

Episode 92: Taking Back your Amygdala and Flourishing Through a Crisis Featuring Dr. Moira Somers and Dave Goetsch

April 2, 2020

In today’s episode, we take a less analytical position on the current situation to focus more on the behavioural side of things. Joining us are two returning guests, Dr. Moira Somers and Dave Goetsch, who share their unique perspectives in a very real and at times refreshingly comical conversation about how people could most beneficially respond to this moment in time. Dave speaks of his personal experience going from panicky investor to getting a feel for the broad concept of index investing, and the idea that learning not to worry about the market on a day to day basis can be applied to life more generally. Dr. Somers provides some psychological background to these different strategies for tolerating stress. She shares her insights about a typical response to crises called amygdala hijack and how two main personality types called ‘the monitor’ and ‘the blunter’ deal with stress. We speak about some more healthy strategies for coping, with banding together and communicating featuring as strong solutions that allow us to clear our heads and problem solve more creatively. The conversation also covers the idea that this moment can be taken as a time to reflect, and even to double down on skills that aren’t necessarily investment-related but which can help ensure financial stability in the future. Toward the end of the episode, we look at how financial advisors could be the most useful to their clients right now and hear a strong argument for a strategy that combines experience-based advice with a more important trait: a high EQ. Tune into today’s episode to find out how you can gain more of a bird's eye view of your version of the current situation.

Key Points From This Episode:

Amygdala hijack: Moira’s thoughts on psychological responses to COVID-19. [0:03:33.8]
Dave’s thoughts on mitigating valid worry using his understanding of markets. [0:05:54.4]
Learning not to be emotionally connected to the minutiae of the crisis. [0:13:25.0]
Non-investment related skills that can strengthen our financial lives. [0:14:56.1]
Adjusting models and using them to gain insights rather than predict the future. [0:17:04.9]
Tools Dave has acquired to deal with market fluctuation since 2008. [0:20:40.2]
Beating myopic loss aversion by planning your response to situations ahead. [0:24:00.3]
Ways of toggling between contrasting feelings about the present and future. [0:29:30.5]
Being reflective about one’s current experience rather than reactive. [0:33:07.1]
The best predictor of getting through stress: social support. [0:33:59.2]
A four-step process to effective decision-making defined by the Heath brothers. [0:37:07.2]
Banding together and speaking about our difficulties to find creative solutions. [0:41:04.2]
Buffering emotions through shopping and how shoppers are coping now. [0:43:30.2]
Changes in workplace customs and industry trajectories sped up by the crisis. [0:44:32.2]
The contours of a healthy response to inner and outer turbulence. [0:48:24.2]
What financial advisors can do to help their clients right now: listen to them. [0:53:45.2]
High EQs and which Big Bang Theory character would be good to talk to now. [0:58:33.2]
Where folks who have no financial advisor might turn for help. [1:02:45.2]
How spouses in charge of finances could communicate with their partner. [1:04:10.2]
Financial advisors as punching bags or mediators between couples. [1:07:09.2]
How to deal with communicating realites to kids as a single parent. [1:08:40.2]

Read the Transcript:

Ben Felix: This is the Rational Reminder podcast, a weekly reality check on sensible investing and financial decision-making for Canadians. We're hosted by me, Benjamin Felix and Cameron Passmore.

Cameron Passmore: So this is episode 92 and it's a couple of firsts actually, the first time we have two guests on at once, and first time we've had repeat guests, so this is super interesting and exciting show for us.

Ben Felix: Yeah, and you put this together. You thought that Moira and Dave would complement each other and be a really good voice of reason for our audience during the interesting times that we're living through right now. And think that they definitely did accomplish that.

Cameron Passmore: Yes, so Dr. Moira Somers, as our listeners know, was a guest on our show last year. She's a clinical neuropsychologist, professor and author of a fabulous book called Advice That Sticks. We reached her from her home in Winnipeg. And then Dave Goetsch was also a guest back... it was Episode 26. And Dave was the Co-Executive Producer of The Big Bang Theory. And we reached Dave his home in Los Angeles. And we pulled this off just in the past couple of days. And I think it's also the first time we've done a recording on a Saturday. So we recorded this on Saturday, March 28th.

Ben Felix: Yep, here's two phenomenal perspectives. I mean, Dave speaks from his personal experience going from panicky investor, to kind of getting a feel for just the broad concept of index investing and how you don't really have to worry about what's going on day-to-day, just that whole concept of, "This time is always different." But that doesn't mean that you need to change anything that you're doing. And then obviously, Moira from her professional perspective, she's able to contribute a ton of unbelievably useful insight to the discussion.

Cameron Passmore: Yes, I think this becomes a real keeper interview, that we'll look back on many, many times in the future. And it was a real pleasure, at times was very funny, as you'd expect from certainly Dave, but both of them it was quite comical, and how they fed off each other and actually went in places that we didn't think we'd go, it was very interesting.

Ben Felix: Yep, we hope you enjoy it. Less analytical than our last episode on the topic of the current situation, so.

Cameron Passmore: I think that's by design. I mean, I think the last two have been fabulous in going through some of the analytics. I just thought this was nice complement to those episodes, more on the behavioral side.

Ben Felix: Totally agree. And just as important, if not more important, probably more important.

Cameron Passmore: So with that, enjoy our discussion with Dr. Moira Somers and Dave Goetsch. Moira and Dave, welcome to the Rational Reminder podcast.

Dr. Moira Somers: Thank you. Great to be here.

Dave Goetsch: Yeah, thanks so much. Am I a regular? This is my second time, at what point in my regular?

Cameron Passmore: Well, this is a double first actually, you're both now regulars. This is the first double interview episode.

Dr. Moira Somers: In science it takes three points to make a trend. So I think we need to do this one more time.

Dave Goetsch: I totally agree with Moira, she's a scientist, we should go with that.

Cameron Passmore: Yeah, Ben and I are so excited to have you both. We appreciate you coming on kind of a short notice. And we thought it would be interesting just based on what is happening in the world lately, and you each have very interesting perspectives. So that's the genesis behind this idea. So let's kick it off, Moira, can you describe what is going on in people's brains when they're faced with a level of economic and health related uncertainty that we're living through these days?

Dr. Moira Somers: No, for the purpose of this conversation Cameron, I hope it's okay if I sort of use brain and mind interchangeably. There is a tendency when people are under stress to really hyper focus to rally all of their neurological resources to try and figure out solutions to the problem. When they're in the grip of fear, you may have heard of this phrase amygdala hijack, that the higher-order centers of the brain go offline for a while, while people are in the midst of a fear response.

But as they try to get into problem solving, what happens is that the higher-order centers of the brain do come back online. But they sometimes come back online in this hyper focused kind of way that does a really good job of dealing with what's in the spotlight at the moment, but fails to see what's going on in the broader environment or sort of what are some of the other sources of input that should be considered. So even when we're out of an immediate fear response, we may not be accessing our best thinking, even so.

Ben Felix: Yeah, interesting. I mean, we see that anecdotally with people that we're speaking to now and people in general, I think.

Dr. Moira Somers: So there's kind of two camps that people fall into once they do acknowledge the threat and try to figure out what to do with it. So the two camps are called monitoring and blunting. So the monitors, you could think of them as owls with big wide eyes, and they are kind of looking to find sources of information and figure out what to do about that. And the blunter, you could think of as an owl with its head turned 180 in the other direction, just like, "La la la la la la, I do not want to know what's going on right now."

And often those people are married to one another, which makes it really hard for a financial advisor to know who exactly am I... which style should I speak to right now? But those are two phrases maybe we could think of during this conversation, are you a monitor, or are you a blunter when it comes to the current conversation?

Ben Felix: Yeah, that's interesting. Dave, when we had you on the first time that you were on, on this podcast, you talked a little bit about your story and how you grew up worrying about money. But now you've learned to embrace uncertainty, and you kind of talked about this as being a transformation that you went through, how are you embracing, or thinking about embracing, the current pandemic related uncertainty that we're living through?

Dave Goetsch: Well, I think the first thing is recognizing how legitimate it is for people to be worried, and how part of this is allowing myself to be anxious during this time. And when I think about the things that... I mean, what helps me is to kind of parse out where my stress and anxiety exists. So everybody's worried about their health, health of their families, loved ones, we don't know where that's going to go. Everyone's worried about their jobs, their businesses, they're not going to work, when are they going to be able to get back to life as normal?

And then there's this third piece of, you watch what's happening in the markets and investments and what's going on with that. And I, in '08, '09, I was such a mess, and every day leading up to that, because I was, maybe what Moira was describing as the monitor, the person obsessed with everything that's happening, but maybe also the owl looking the other way, in that I was paralyzed, and I couldn't do anything about it.

And so I got to this point where I found out that there was a different way to invest, there's a different way to have the best chance of having a successful outcome without trying to predict the future, where the stock market was going to go, and it involves having a financial advisor. And I ended up writing a pledge to myself, and I looked up what that pledge was this morning, and it's, "I know that life is uncertain. But I'm not powerless, I can control what I can control. That's why I'm a long-term investor, because I believe in the power of markets." It all just boils down to that one point on the investing side.

And then when I start to think about the health and the jobs and the other stuff that's worrying about me, I go back to that same thing. I know that life is uncertain, we really don't know what's going to happen in any facet of our lives. But you're not powerless. And that's the moment for me, that really changed when I understood this stuff, which is uncertainty used to make me powerless. Because there are things you can do. So just as you can build a portfolio that is going to be reflective of your age, your risk levels, your goals. You can also approach this in terms of, "What are the things that I can do in this crisis? I'm worried about my job and how much money I have, what are the drivers in spending and things that I can do to try and monitor that?"

And then this last line about being a long-term investor, because you believe in the power of markets. If you believe in the power of markets, you believe in the power of people. You believe that we're, as a globe full of people, going to try to innovate and solve problems and make things better. And this kind of investing all comes from a science-based place anyway. And when I read all the articles that I'm reading, I do feel like the solution to this problem is a science-based solution. It's a vaccine, it's a strategy, it's about taking temperatures and vectoring or doing the things in South Korea. And I do believe that we will figure this out. I just don't know exactly when.

And identifying it like that as, "Oh, I just feel like this absolute weight of anxiety that's on top of me..." Being able to kind of slice it up and parse it out and say, "Oh, well, I think I'm feeling that way because of this, and this way because of that," ends up for me, being really helpful.

Dr. Moira Somers: Wow. I think we could just stop right there. That is really powerful, Dave. What made you think to write down that statement that you could turn back to? Because it sounds like it's really a touchstone for you, one of those things that helps you determine whether you've got... Like the old Alchemist, the touchstone was to help discern what was gold versus what was dross, or what was the non essential metals? And that statement sounds like it really does that for you.

Dave Goetsch: Yeah, it totally does. I mean, I'm not a person who is faith based, I had a writing partner for decades. And he, during that time, became a very observant Orthodox Jew. And I remember one day he went, we were working on 3rd Rock from the Sun, and he went to go talk to our bosses to say, "I would like to observe the Sabbath, could I leave on Friday afternoons?" And he was so nervous about it, because this job was so important to him. But also we were a team, he didn't want to negatively influence me or whatever.

And I remember he went to Bonnie and Terry Turner, and they were like, "Oh, my God, that's great. We wish we could believe in something. We're so happy that you have something to believe in." And I've always kind of felt like that. And so as corny as it is, that this weird way of looking at markets has been helpful for me, it is, and so I've just accepted it. And the thing that I come back to is how I end up just seeing it in so many different ways.

I'm lucky in that I've been able to talk to folks like David Booth, who's the founder of Dimensional Fund Advisors, and I've been able to interview Gene Fama and a few of these other guys, and they are really inspiring to talk to. And so that has been very helpful for me. I want to make a T-shirt that's Gene Fama's face but we call it The Dollar Fama, because we can... He has a lot of wisdom in what he talks about. And I think that whatever helps people to get through these times, because these are difficult times. And they are unique in ways that we're not exactly prepared for.

Cameron Passmore: It's so interesting, Dave, that you wrote a pledge. And this is something that Moira and I actually talked about a couple times over the past few weeks, just in terms of what lessons and action items can we take forward from this experience? So my question to you Moira, just on that, from a psychological perspective, can people take away from this crisis that's an opportunity to make them better investors going forward? Is it something like a pledge?

Dave Goetsch: I thought you were going to say, "From a psychological standpoint, is Dave crazy?" I was very eager to get that answer.

Dr. Moira Somers: You sound pretty darn grounded. Yeah, our conversation, Cameron, has been about, "What are people figuring out about the real risk tolerance?" Not just something that they might respond to on a questionnaire when they're in some zen state of mind, or some distracted state of mind where this isn't really top of mind at all. Well, now stuff is becoming really top of mind. And I think that it brings up some really interesting opportunities, not in terms of that market stuff, but in terms of the personal stuff.

What are you learning about your tolerance for uncertainty right now? What are you learning about your relationship with your current financial advisor? What are you learning about what you need? And so I think that what a lot of us are learning is how much this stuff waxes and wanes, that you may be perfectly calm, and one ridiculous Facebook post or snippet of a news broadcast will have you wanting to buy rifles and a water purifier and head for the hills. And then five minutes later, somebody makes you laugh and then you're back to a place of greater groundedness.

So I think one of the things that we can all do is take a page from Dave's book right now and observe ourselves and figure out how to turn those observations into insight, into personal insight about how we want to be on a move-forward basis. And investing is just a small piece, isn't it, of our financial lives? I wrote an article a while ago on what are the 10 top skills needed for 21st century financial survival? And maybe right now we can't do much about the investment piece. We're kind of in the lifeboat, and we're hanging on until we get back to the port.

But there are lots of other things that we can do. We can be looking at, "Do we really have marketable skills? And are we keeping them updated?" And, "Is now a good time while we're all hunkering down to be developing some of those skills?" Just before our podcast started, I talked about how one of my teens has been deciding that he's going to learn metallurgy or metalworking skills, and so our house and our yard are filled with horrible welding smells right now.

But really, he's developing a hobby and some self knowledge and some skills and I really want to follow his lead. What are some of the other modern financial survival skills? I think they include talking about money. I think they include, if we're all going to be dealing with health anxiety and death anxiety right now, well, maybe now's a good time to actually be talking about these things with our partners, maybe now's a good time to finalize that wealth transfer plan? There are other things that we can be doing to really strengthen our financial lives. If you have a good financial advisor who can help direct you to some of those other non-investment aspect of things, then bonus.

Dave Goetsch: Yeah, I just want to build off of that, [inaudible 00:16:33] which so important what you're saying. And I like how your son has jumped right to, "We might go back to the Middle Ages, and I want to be prepared to have armor." So he's going back to first principles. So-

Dr. Moira Somers: Yeah, I have to point out where Mennonite... So the Mennonite boy is out in the garage making armaments, it's kind of weird.

Dave Goetsch: Oh, that's how you rebel. That's great. Yeah, I just want to build on that, which is that what are these opportunities in this moment? There's a chance to talk to your kids about it, about what's happening, how you perceive it. My kids are 7 and 10, and they saw me looking at a spreadsheet, and they were like, "What's that?" And I said, "Oh, it's a budget." And they're like, "Do we have enough money?" Or, "[inaudible 00:17:22] have enough money?" And rather than saying just blanket like, "Yes, don't worry about it," because I don't think that really helps kids very much. You don't have to show them line items and stuff, and it's not like I'm the world's best budgeter, but to have a little bit more of a conversation, I think is helpful.

And then the other thing that I see in this moment is, if you're a financial advisor, if you're interested in investing, you talk a lot about models. And the last 10 years, the topic of quants has been huge, and they all have models, and those models have a range of outcomes. And people have been talking about data mining and back testing, and does your model hold up or not? And the more people have familiarity with this idea of models and the limitations of models, I think the more helpful this moment can be.

Because what you see is that models... When you hear David Booth or Gene Fama talk about models, they're not designed to predict the future. They're designed to help us understand how things are working, and gain insights from that. And I feel like there's this big disconnect right now about looking at all these models, of how many people are going to get sick and what's going to happen. And people are so frustrated, genuinely, understandably, because there's no number, how can a number be between X and 30X? And it's because of all the variables, it's because of all the range of outcomes, it's because of the things we don't know.

But rather than trying to get a number from them, what are the insights you can gain from that? And you have your own model of your retirement or your college planning or what was going to happen. And just like Moira was saying, that model might not stand up to this moment. So it would be easy to pick on yourself, it would be easy to blame yourself, why aren't I 90% in bonds and 10% in stocks after the largest, longest bull market in history? How come I didn't know when t o change it?" It's so easy to beat yourself up, but rather just say, "Hey, there's more data now, there's more information." Your model is, literally in terms of how you perceive the world, is being means tested. There is real data. So maybe you want to adjust your model. Maybe you want to think about things a little bit differently from that.

But that has to come from a kind of kindness, because it's so easy for all of us. I mean, to beat ourselves up, "Why didn't I do this? How come I didn't do this? How come I couldn't predict the future? And if only I'd done that." And that stuff is so toxic during these stressful times, especially, and in a relationship. And I say that as a divorced person. So I'm really aware of how toxic that stuff can get.

Ben Felix: David, you touched on this earlier, but I want to dig into it a little bit more, because I've heard you speak about it, and it's fascinating. Can you compare how you're feeling now to how you felt in the 2009 market decline?

Dave Goetsch: Yeah. So obviously, like I was saying, it's different because there are more factors than that. But I think one of the ways I described it as like, I used to ride the ups and downs of the markets on an emotional level, that the amygdala hijack that Moira was talking about, was me to a T. And the difference for me now is, I can watch the market go up and down, but I don't have to. And part of that is knowing that the money that I have in the markets for my retirement, for 20 years from now, it's not for right now. And also, it's knowing that I think I have the best plan in place for growing this money, but there are no guarantees, as we're seeing right now. And so I don't know what else I would do.

And the other thing that I was thinking, Moira was talking about, is some people... I'm sure some folks listen to your podcasts are like, "Why do I need a financial advisor? I know all this stuff, I'm in my basket of mutual funds. I've got this, I've got a button that rebalances," whatever that is. The thing is, I don't want the ability to push a button and sell everything. I want some cushion around that. I want to be able to have to talk to an advisor first, before I say, "Hey, go to cash."

I was on a call with somebody on Monday relating how on Monday, which saw a giant... It doesn't matter whether you're listening to this during this crisis, because I'm just saying like, "On Monday, there was a giant downturn in the market." People are like, "Oh, yeah, this Monday. No, I know. Yeah, sure." But there was a giant downturn of the market, and he took all of his clients to cash and then on Tuesday it went up 10%, and then Wednesday went up 5%. So that's not the advisor that I want, but my advisor wouldn't do that.

And so it's like, I guess, in terms of comparing between, '08, '09, and now, it's like, I feel like I've got tools to help. They don't solve everything, but they help. And I've got people around me that I can call and talk to. And honestly, being able to talk to you guys about this stuff, that helps me, that resets me. The more I talk to people about this, the more I'm able to kind of stay... I don't know, when you row in a [inaudible 00:23:16], wherever you're trying to be set right in the center of that boat, and it's not... You can't do it all the time, but that's where you're trying to be in the center. And so how can we help each other try to be more centered, because I think it's just too hard to do by yourself?

Cameron Passmore: So Moira, Dave mentioned Monday, and I know, a lot of Monday's seem the same, but Monday was a particularly harsh day. And I think days like that can cause long-term investors to really get a short-term perspective. It's called myopic loss aversion, and this can really mess with your amygdala. So on days like that, times like this, what can people do to keep their heads away from that short-term, and more long-term focused?

Dr. Moira Somers: It reminds me of the conversation about, when is the best time to plant a tree, is 20 years ago, and now is the second-best time. Pre deciding this stuff is our friend, to have a plan and to... Obviously for it to be a flexible plan. But for it to be a plan where certain things are pre decided, like, "How are you going to ride out tough markets?" There is an advantage to having Dave's experience from 2008, or the previous six... the other market setbacks. So we have a whole generation of people who have only been investors during good times, and now this is their time of learning. And so to take that on as a challenge, "This is my time of learning. This is when I get to see if I can keep my head."

And so even if you haven't pre decided to do that, you can decide for the first time, and you can re decide to do that now, to stick to a plan, to hold the reins with enough firmness that the horse can't bolt on you. But to be able, nevertheless, to pivot and navigate as you need to. And realize that there are biases that we are prone to, no matter how smart we are during times of fear, and Daniel Kahneman said just this week, "Every peek at your portfolio right now is an opportunity for distress." So in terms of that chain mail, it's an opportunity for slimmer arrows to penetrate you, and why would you do that to yourself? So to figure out what is it that takes you away from your plan, and to plug those holes?

Dave Goetsch: There's a whole genre of YouTube videos, and they're reaction videos, and all you see is the person watching the screen. And then they are grossed out by something or they're shocked by something and you see their face. And I keep waiting for the portfolio version of that. Just people looking at their portfolio and being like, "What? This is so crazy." But I feel like that would at least let... If you could see a bunch of people reacting, they'd be like, "Yeah, I know, this is all something we're all going through." Yeah, that Kahneman advice is so true, just try to get through that moment. It's hard. It's hard.

And the other thing I wanted to add is that there are people who are struggling with this moment, there was just an article in The New York Times about this guy, and it's like, "My 40 years of investing all went out the window this week, because this is how I'd do it." He's going on and on and on. And I'm reading it, I'm like, "Wait, you've been timing the market for 30 years? And now you don't believe in your system?" Well, you shouldn't believe in your system, you shouldn't time the markets. There are people who are blaming the market for a strategy that may be more at fault. And I'm not trying to pick on people for their strategies. I'm saying that is somebody who didn't have a strategy and was terrible at stuff and bought a lot of JDS Uniphase in 1999, and has experienced a lot of wrong ways to invest.

Ben Felix: Dave, you talked about how... or we talked about how you've kind of gone through this transformation as an investor in terms of the way that you view markets. That aside, because you mentioned working with a financial advisor as being part of that transformation. So that investment philosophy piece aside, how important has having a financial plan been your ability to get through times of uncertainty?

Dave Goetsch: So emotionally, it's really, really important. And I like having goals, I like trying to look forward to things. And I was describing it to somebody recently as, the thing about a financial advisor is you don't know what you don't know. So when a financial advisor says, "Hey, you're on a hit TV show, you're making good money for the next couple of years, you're in a business that has big ups and big downs. And that might not be the case in a couple of years. So what about a defined benefit plan?" "I have no idea what that is." He explains what that is. "That sounds amazing." And so it's those things that advisors have been able to help me with that had a really big impact on me. And it's this point where it helps me to think, "Hey, this money in the market is for 20 years from now."

So I don't know how to be... I would never want to be a short-term investor in the stock market, I guess. It's just, to me, that's just gambling, or I don't know what you're doing at that point. But I couldn't have that philosophy that I have if I didn't have that long-term vision. And my advisors really helped me get there. That's been a really big part of it. And then just the speed dial part of it, of just like, "Hey, this thing came up, I have a question." He was really helpful about a month ago, was just thinking about a refinance on a mortgage at this point and that point, and just have that person you can trust and email them and say, "Does this make sense or that makes sense?" There's so much data, you could get so many different answers from so many different people on the internet, that it becomes really helpful to have that one person.

Dr. Moira Somers: I'm wondering what you folks are noticing in yourselves about this toggling between long-term concerns and immediate concerns, and how those are balancing out. I do find tremendous comfort in knowing I've got a long-term plan. One of the things that I realized this summer when, like Dave, I tend to run towards the financially anxious end of things. And this summer I got majorly triggered by a trip to Ireland, of all places, when the Brexit stuff was making everybody there just so incredibly nervous.

And what I realized at that moment was that, "Yeah, I feel really solid about the long-term. And I feel really insecure about the short-term. And I need to address how I'm going to deal with any short-term setbacks, because that could lead me to blow holes in the long-term." And so I did set myself up for what it was like for me to be caught by that anxiety and what I wanted to be able to give to my future current self if that happened again. Never dreaming that that future period of gut clenching anxiety would happen again so soon.

But I'm glad that I paid attention to it. Not in a way that blew up my financial future, but that just helped me deal with current self, by having cash reserve, by knowing what our monthly net was, and how I was going to deal with that in the event of crisis. So I just wonder about how you guys are doing that toggle, "What I'm feeling now, what I'm feeling about the long-term, how I get beyond feeling [inaudible 00:31:16] and addressing what I need?"

Ben Felix: I mean, personally, I've been amazed at how little I've felt through this whole thing so far. This is my first real crisis in terms of the market dropping and having a real... I mean, we had a bit of a drop in 2018, about 20%. And I think, Dave, you wrote an article for Dimensional around that time, just as you've done recently. But in terms of scary stuff happening in the world, that was not nearly as bad as this. Personally, I have not felt any anxiety or concern. I think professionally, it's been a little bit more stressful, just because our clients don't necessarily have the same lack of emotion that I do. So dealing with that has been, I think, more stressful than dealing with myself.

Cameron Passmore: More stressful, but we... I mean, we have the proper team in place and a proper plan in place. And we've had a huge effort to outreach to people, which has been an incredibly human experience for all of us. And the feedback from clients has been nothing short of remarkable, because this is different, in my mind, than 2008, 2009, there's a human health element that's very different, so the concern for all of us trumps any sort of anger that there may have been in 2008 towards the financial market. So it is a different experience. But I think we all have our financial houses in order and our own plans in place.

But from a professional standpoint, well stressful, I'm so happy that we did have that infrastructure and the properly equipped team in place. I mean, this is a perfect example what we're doing now, we have advisors that are talking to clients, as well as Ben and I are, but we're also doing events like this, talking to you two to help people through this time. So it is a interesting question you raised Moira.

Dr. Moira Somers: Yeah, as I said, if we could get people to really be reflective about what their experience is, rather than having to act out of it in a way that's self destructive or erratic. It's really useful, like Ben, I, even though I'm considered an essential worker in the other aspect of my life, as a clinical psychologist, a neuro psychologist, and so I have to be exposed at some level to disease vectors, there are just things that everybody is doing that we know we can do now. And paying attention to ourself, paying attention to our emotional experience of all of this, noticing it, bookmarking it, not going unconscious, or pretending it's not happening, allows us to make better informed plans for our future selves. No matter what that is.

And what we know is that the best predictor of getting through stressful times, is social support. And if you have, like Dave, if you have people you can turn to that help ground you, whether that's with respect to your health, anxiety, or your financial anxiety, or your anxiety about your kids, and if you can actively turn away from the stuff that does the opposite of grounding, that just spools you up unnecessarily and unhelpfully, then you are in the best possible place you can be for that.

Dave Goetsch: Hey, Moira, have you guys ever done group therapy around money? And I don't mean like confronting all of your anxieties and all that stuff, well, that could be part of it. But as you were talking, it just reminded me of... Remember the Beardstown Lady story-

Dr. Moira Somers: Yes.

Dave Goetsch: ... those old ladies and they were investing, and they beat the stock market, and turns out after fees, they didn't beat the stock market, but that was after they sold all those books? And anyway, I just feel like we would all benefit from a Beardstown Lady approach of getting together to talk about it, a kind of book group thing, which is, "How are you feeling? How are you doing? How's this?" And people are afraid to talk about money. And I would always note, sitting around a room of 10 writers for 12 years in the Big Bang Theory, we talked about everything, we talked about... Because who knows what a story comes out of that, and everyone's close friends and whatever, but you never talked about how much money people made.

And at some point, I was like, "Wait a second, [inaudible 00:35:31] all of us, why don't we all negotiate our salaries together?" And there was like, "No." And so it's probably too high a bar to show up and say, "Here's my mint account and look at that." But just to be able to have people talk around and not feel alone, and not feel like they are stuck in wallowing in the stress of their lives.

Ben Felix: Moira, you gave a couple of examples for self reflection and social support for getting through times like this. One of the things that I've been noticing is that some people are calm, but rationalizing making decisions that they would not have made six months ago. Something simple, just like, "I think it's a good time to stop my monthly contribution." When statistically now may be the best time to keep it going. How do you think people should deal with that rationalizing behavior and doing something that they wouldn't have done under different circumstances, even if they're calm about it?

Dr. Moira Somers: Yeah. There is a bias to action that makes us feel better. And so it's no wonder that people do feel better when they've got a plan. There's a four-step process that Chip and Dan Heath... Do you guys know their books? Chip Heath and Dan Heath-

Ben Felix: Yeah.

Dr. Moira Somers: ... they've written stuff-

Ben Felix: The slice of-

Dr. Moira Somers: ... Made to Stick and Switch. And in that book called, Decisive, they've got this four-step plan for making decisions that I have pasted on my wall. And it really helps overcome some of those errors that we're prone to making. I do want to get back to Dave's comment about why we have lingerie parties and sex toy parties and all kinds of gatherings, and we never talk about money. So that's still in the back of my mind, Dave, we have not left you hanging there. But the four-step process that Chip and Dan Heath talk about is a lovely one to review briefly right now. Would it be okay, if I-

Ben Felix: Oh, absolutely, yeah.

Dr. Moira Somers: ... went into that? So the first one deals with that tunneling of attention that we all do when we're under stress. And the acronym is WRAP, W-R-A-P, and the first step is to widen the perspective, it's to deliberately think about, once you've decided on an action plan, what are two or three other things that you could do, not including that, to deliberately force yourself to consider alternatives?

The R, in the wrap process is to reality test your assumptions. So to just go and check out, "Am I doing the math wrong?" At that basic a level. Or, "Am I requiring a level of certainty that does not exist this side of glory?" And having a trusted advisor that you can run some of that stuff by is an important part of reality testing.

The A, is to attain distance, and sometimes that distance is simply time. Just get your hand off that button. If this was a good decision today, then it should be a good decision tomorrow. And if it's not feeling the same tomorrow, then that's evidence. And you don't have to have any ego around that, you can just go, "Oh, that was that glitchy part of the brain. And I'm glad that I had a process for not capitulating to that."

And then the P, is the hardest one for all of us who might have any degree of ego, and it's prepare to be wrong. And so when your financial advisor goes, "You know that whole buy low, sell high thing? You're about to do the opposite. Maybe you don't want to do that." That could be a real evidence of wrong. There are lots of reasons, Ben, right now why people might need to stop their monthly contributions and they need not feel stupid or guilty about doing that if it's a matter of part of pivoting in response to reality about what needs to be done now.

But if it's just sort of a rationalized version of, "Oh my god, I'm scared and I'm going to sell, or I'm not going to buy." Then you need somebody like Ben and Cameron and the folks that David's mentioned, to help prevent you from doing that. Just wrap your mind around that, is the thing to keep in mind. And that's a great book to be looking at if you're stuck at home alone and want a good book.

Ben Felix: Really good way of answering that question. I mentioned that professionally, it's been a little bit stressful because clients are anxious, as they should be. But one of the really interesting outcomes that we've seen, I think, Cameron, you would say the same thing, is that, from an economic perspective, nobody has had a real reason to make big changes, like you just talked about Moira, no one has had to stop their monthly contributions, well, yet, because of the economic conditions, because they had their six month emergency fund set aside, and they were saving an amount that was sustainable.

Now, if people's income stopped completely, that might change. But as of now, from an economic perspective, I guess what I'm trying to say is things have been going to plan where the plan was put in place to deal with bad scenarios, bad outcomes, like what we're seeing now. So it's been interesting to see a reality testing of the planning that has been done for our clients. Likewise, having cash set aside for a major purchase, if someone who's going to buy a house, say, this month, the cash is there, it wasn't invested in stocks. So those have all been really interesting outcomes to observe.

Dr. Moira Somers: So in terms of an action plan, one of the things that advisors can be doing that's helpful right now, for those folks who want that certainty, where can that be increased without making yourself crazy? One of it is, create a game plan, create an action plan for what you're going to do if those emergency cash reserves aren't sufficient. What would you do? Now, if we're talking about a 10 year zombie apocalypse scenario, I don't know that anybody can help you with that. But if you're talking like-

Dave Goetsch: I bet your son can.

Dr. Moira Somers: Thank you. That's the reason I had children, was to prevent me from zombie apocalypse.

Dave Goetsch: I mean, that's the old reason we had children, was to protect us from those things, so. Let's not forget.

Dr. Moira Somers: Yes, well, one kid's learning barbering skills and hairdressing skills and the other ones building armaments. So I'm covered, I'm good. So yeah can you use your advisor, can you use the people around you via whatever the financial equivalent of the lingerie party is, Dave, to what would you do if emergency funds run dry? More seriously, what are the resources we have in our family to earn money if we get laid off if something happens to the company?

When my parents were starting out, they had boarders, I grew up with an amazing array of people in my household because my parents saw a spare bedroom as an opportunity to raise the family boat, as it were. And it did that in all kinds of interesting ways. They used to board OPP trainees, Ontario Provincial Police trainees used to come through our house. So as teenagers we had zero chance to misbehave, and I'm sure that was strategic on our parents part. But there are lots of creative things that can come out of this. If you're willing to talk and to share with each other, whether that's in your family or your friend network or with your professional advisors.

Ben Felix: Fascinating. And I guess earning income is one side of that, but the other thing I've heard a lot of people talking about doing now is reducing their expenses.

Dr. Moira Somers: Yes. Yeah.

Dave Goetsch: I'm wondering right now, what are shopaholics doing? Because they can't shop. They can't get stuff delivered to them even, right? Except for provisions. They have to go to the pharmacy and just buy a lot of cold medicine or something. We're being forced into this austerity. I was texting with a friend of mine who's on an overall deal at a studio, which means you get paid this amount of money. And he's always concerned about his family and the expenses that his teenage kids spend, and I was like, "You must be so happy, you're getting paid and your kids can't spend any money." He was like, "Oh, I'm thrilled."

Dr. Moira Somers: But the first response to that question, what are shopaholics doing, I'm thinking the answer is they're feeling. And that's not something that a lot of us are equipped to know what to do with.

Dave Goetsch: Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Moira Somers: There's a great line from the whole addictions Recovery Network, which is that you can never get enough of what you don't really need. And shopping is one way in which people get more and more of stuff they don't really need, all the while not getting the stuff they do need, which is connection and ability to tolerate feeling, and a whole bunch of other things. So I would hope that if we're willing to raise our own EQ, our own emotional intelligence during this time, that part of it might be to meet ourselves with compassion, and gentleness, and curiosity, and to say, "How am I doing? And what am I learning about myself? And how would I like to emerge from this period? What would allow me to emerge from this period stronger and better in a way that would please me, and please the people that matter to me?"

Dave Goetsch: Yeah, I love that. I love posing that question. The other thing that I'm so interested in this moment is, I do believe we'll get on the other side of this in a period of months. And then we won't go back to totally normal, but it also won't be totally changed, right? So even after the shock of something like 911, people went back to work, but air travel was forever changed. We went toward … trillion dollars and cost many lives.

There are impacts that you see from these shocks, and so what will they be? And how can they be positive? When I talk to my friends now, no one can explain to me why they need to be in an office five days a week now that they're on Zoom. Most people could have most of their meetings on a Tuesday, Wednesday and work from home a couple days a week, and not have a commute and change the way you work. I know I work in Hollywood, and I think we're seeing a compression of the next five years, in these five months, movie theaters are closed, streaming is taking off, studios that we're dependent on theaters and things like that are struggling, maybe there'll be some consolidation.

So we're seeing different versions of the future that might appear. And we, as always, need to make adjustments. And so I think a lot of people in Hollywood are, where are the opportunities, where are the things that are changing, where is this all headed? So I love this idea that Moira is talking about kind of personally, where do you want to come out of that, and then also lining that up with whatever field you're in, if you're in the restaurant business, and you're lucky enough to be able to open your restaurant back up and things happen, how is this experience going to change how you do a restaurant, because what if this happens again?

There are going to be lots of lessons from this experience, one of which is appreciating teachers. My parents were teachers growing up, but my goodness, parents are seeing close up with this remote teaching at home, how hard it is and what a gift it is to be able to drop their kids off at eight o'clock in the morning and pick them up at three o'clock in the afternoon.

Cameron Passmore: So Moira, I got a pragmatic question for you. You talked about reflection earlier. So if someone is feeling a high level of stress or anxiety during this current environment, and thinking about that, in terms of their portfolio, is that stress normal? Or should they take that as a signal to perhaps change their portfolio asset mix going forward?

Dr. Moira Somers: It's all data. It's all data. And when you hit turbulence in the airplane, you don't decide at that moment that you're going to jump out, that would be the stupidest thing to do. And so, when we get back on the ground, we can check and make sure that the airplane is worthy, that there's no damage that's been done by the turbulence, and if there is, you check it, but it's all data.

And so part of the data that you need to look at is how are you doing with your current investing? And is what needs to happen for you, is it an inner game, or is it an outer game? The inner game is learning how to ride through turbulence. The outer game is figuring out how long you want to be in the airplane, and how worthy is that airplane?

So again, there's the toggling between inner and outer, there's toggling between rational and feeling, there's toggling between current and future. And we just need to make sure that as we try to cover all the bases, that we're getting back to our best thinking. Monitors and blunters both have strengths and weaknesses in their coping styles. Blunters tend to have way less physical distress and way less emotional distress, but sometimes taken too far, that is indistinguishable from denial. And they sometimes need to be taken by the ear and brought into somebody's office and said, "Look, there are a few things you need to change here. Now that we understand how fragile life is, you need to get a life insurance." Like, "Knock it off, stop pretending."

Similarly, monitors, they do tend to have much higher distress levels. And so they need to be looking at what are the sources of information that they're allowing to come in? And how much of it is utter nonsense, and how much of it is alarmist without being helpful? If financial advisors are working with people who just seem to need endless amounts of information, then one of the best thing to do... it's kind of like having a Border Collie, right? They don't do well when they're bored. So throw them a stick, and make them chase the stuff that is actually appropriate for them to do. But then the monitors also need to consider, reflect on their own vulnerabilities and set it up so that they cannot torpedo their own financial lives at this point.

Dave Goetsch: If I was just going to add on that, as an end investor, I don't have any experience except my kind of feelings in my own journey. But if I could understand why somebody would say right now, "Hey, I remember when I sat in your office, and you told me, 'How would you feel if the market went down 50%?'" Because once a generation that has happened, and we've seen that and part of being a long-term investor is to be able to ride through that. Do you think this kind of stuck bond-asset allocation would work for you? I understand how that feeling right now might be different from when they sat in your office, Cameron.

But I guess my instinct would be like, "Okay, now remember this feeling. And when this is over, let's sit in my office again, and let's compare these three moments before it happened, when it happened, and now after. And what is that mix?" Because it might be, "Let's keep it the same." Or it might be, "Geez, I don't want to feel like that again." Or it might be something else. But it's probably, any kind of change right now, is data. But I'd want to wait a little bit to see what else is circling around that data.

Ben Felix: You talked about embracing uncertainty. And it sounds like you're keeping a very level head as an end investor through what's going on right now. Do you find your relationship with your... Knowing that you're keeping a level head and knowing that you've embraced uncertainty? Do you still find the relationship with your financial advisor to be increasingly valuable when things are getting increasingly uncertain like they are now?

Dave Goetsch: So yes, I do. And I have recommended a few of my friends to that advisor. And as you guys know, a person who's just taken a chunk of money they've worked really, really hard to save, and then comes up with a plan and invests it, a new investor six months in going through this is very different from somebody who's years and years into it.

And so I feel a personal obligation to them, to my friends, because the idea was like, "Hey, I want you to do this, because you're going to feel better." And there's a friend of mine, who's like, "I don't know, maybe I should have paid off the mortgage on my house?" So I can't help but I'm still texting him, "Call Richard's pictures," and stuff like that, because I have a personal stake in his emotional well being because he's a good friend of mine.

Cameron Passmore: So Moira, what is the best thing you think that financial advisors can be doing to help clients in times like these?

Dr. Moira Somers: Reaching out. Yeah, I mean, that just seems like such an obvious thing. And yet I know that there are advisors who are hunkered down in their basements hoping nobody can find them right now. Largely, those are people who did go through 2008, where some of the vitriol was very targeted at them. There's a study that's been done that showed some of those folks have PTSD-like symptoms.

So really, reaching out, being proactive, calling clients and asking them how they're doing. And then full stop. Full stop. Listen. I have a couple of different people who give me advice in different areas and one of them called last week. And she must have had a script because she said, "I just wanted to call and find out how you're doing and let you know a few things." And then she started in on the history of stock markets around the world. At one point-

Dave Goetsch: Nope, don't do that. That's not a good idea. Don't do that.

Dr. Moira Somers: I put down the phone, I walked down the hall to my front desk, I picked up my mail, I came back to the office. I think she was up to about 2008 by that point. It was not what I asked for, it was not what I needed, it wasn't helpful, I was glad if I could be of service to her because it was what she needed. But really, the role of a financial advisor is to help with amygdala hijack, is to provide guidance. And you can't do that if somebody is in a state of tremendous upset.

So by asking how they're doing, and allowing them to talk, you are actually contributing to their processing of emotion and getting their brain to a level of receptivity, where they could actually hear some information from you. But to do that, the advisor has to be able to tolerate being in the presence of emotion. And there are some people... Imagine if Sheldon from Big Bang Theory were your advisor, he probably would not be doing too well at helping clients right now. So this is a time when advisors really need to up their game on the personal side of advising.

I'm doing a webinar this coming week for advisors, it's a repeat of one I did on Friday, where we had 500 advisors sign up to learn how to be with clients during this time. It reminds me of work... When we're teaching, I teach at a medical school, and we give sessions on helping doctors deliver bad news. And so much of that is about finding out what the person already knows or believes about their situation, and then asking them, "What do they need to know? What would they like to know?" Not just assuming that what they would need to know is what you would want to know. And that way, you don't have to worry about whether you've got a monitor or a blunter on your side, or in your office, you just find out, what do they understand, how are they doing, what do they need to know, how can you be of service? That's what a good advisor does.

Dave Goetsch: Yeah, I think that's a great advice. And I remember talking to a friend who is a grief counselor. And the first piece of advice was not to ask the person who just lost a loved one or spouse or something, "How you doing?" Because the answer's, "Terrible." You know the answer is terrible. So how can you let that person talk and share and feel support? And advisors do have these... they have these powerful arrows in their quiver about control that you can control, tuning out the noise, uncertainty, thinking in the long-term, that's the world of you guys as advisors, you know it inside out. And it relates to so much more than just investing right now. So for me, as an end investor, encouraging advisors to try to use what they know in their bones for more than just this investment answer. I could see that being really helpful for their clients.

Ben Felix: Okay, so I have a lighter question, just to build on what you said Moira, about Sheldon might not be the best financial advisor. So the obvious question, Dave, which character do you think on the show would be the best financial advisor?

Dave Goetsch: Oh, that's so funny. I mean-

Ben Felix: Penny?

Dave Goetsch: Honestly, right now, it would be Penny, right? Because she has the highest EQ. And so she would be able to talk to somebody, and she'd be able to put her arm around somebody. And she would know, hey, this isn't the time for that conversation, and this isn't the time for getting to the numbers right away. And so it's funny, because it's January 2nd of 2020, and you say, "Which character from the Big Bang Theory would you want as your financial advisor?" You'd probably say Sheldon, you might say Leonard, you'd go with the science part of it, right? But right now, what people need is so much more the EQ side, I think.

Dr. Moira Somers: I think you're totally on it. But it's good to know that there are the folks in the back office who continue to be Veron, do the stuff that needs to be done, that there are other people with their eyes on opportunities and their eyes on threats, who are doing that stuff. And this really is a place where you want to know that you've got a strong team and access to even stronger teams, like the geniuses at some of these [inaudible 00:59:43] that Dave mentioned earlier, that nobody's out there trying to do just such individualized plans that they're at incredibly high risk.

Dave Goetsch: What I love about what Moira's talking about, in terms of her teaching to medical school, and how do you deliver the news to patients, is that it's a doctor, it's somebody who's rooted in science, somebody who spent a decade working, studying, training, but then in that moment, has to deliver something emotional. And so it's both sides of that. And that's really where the advisor finds herself.

Dr. Moira Somers: I think the other thing that advisors can do is to really think about the people beyond themselves that they have access to who would be useful to their clients. Sometimes you need to consult, so you're not involving your client with anybody outside yourself, you're just doing some of that background research or figuring out what might be useful at this point. But sometimes, you need to refer. The other one is to collaborate. Sometimes things get very complex. So if you have a client who's got overseas business, and different tax exposures and different risks for their workforce, some of that stuff is going to be way out of your lane.

But there are people in other lanes that you could be bringing in and together, creating the best possible plans, because you've brought in other minds to deal with it. So to be developing those skills of collaboration, it's very different to collaborate than to be the boss, and to let people know to have a number of pre-vetted, ethical, excellent resources from the other professions, law, accounting, psychology, marriage therapy, whatever it might be, to help them through these times.

Dave Goetsch: Another thing that's really important is that in Zoom, there's a button that says touch up appearance, and it can make you look better, it can take a couple years off and the stress. And why not? Why not do it?

Dr. Moira Somers: It does nothing for the hips, though, Dave.

Dave Goetsch: That's out of frame, it's good news, it's not in the picture.

Ben Felix: So we have people who listen to this podcast breakdown roughly as people who are investors who have an advisor, probably lots of our clients, advisors themselves, but there's a big cohort of do-it-yourself investors, so we just spent a lot of time talking about how an advisor can be most useful to their clients, and a lot of it sounded extremely important. What is somebody that does not have an advisor do, where do they turn? I'm thinking about Penny, in the example of someone with a high EQ. But then Moira, you talked about the importance of having that the analytical back office to make sure that the emotional advice being given is actually backed by something meaningful. Where does someone turn if they don't have a relationship with an advisor?

Dr. Moira Somers: I see the bad scenarios, right? I see the folks where it's not working, I see the folks that have created a trail of human wreckage, because they have been diyers who have put nothing in place to deal with their own cognitive biases, and to their own vulnerability to acting out of emotional places that are not good, they don't have a council of advisors around them, they... I dealt with one person this week, who's a day trader, I mean, it's like there's nothing that penetrates for him, that he is farther behind pretty much any one of his peers in terms of his financial status right now, because he keeps blowing up his own portfolio.

So somehow, if you're going to do that, you need to be so clear headed about how you're going to pre decide what the boundaries are, your doing self cannot be allowed to have veto over your planning self. And what those checks and balances are, I would not begin to know how you would do that, because I just keep seeing people who override them every time. So I'm sorry, I'm of no use to those folks.

Cameron Passmore: So this is my last question for, possibly both you, but let's kick off with Moira. So if one spouse in a relationship takes a lead on finances and investing, what is the best way that they can communicate with their partner what is going on with the portfolio?

Dr. Moira Somers: Sometimes, as I mentioned at the top, the monitors marry the blunters, just like the introverts marry the extroverts. So figuring out what would be useful for the other person to know simply by asking, "How do you think we're doing? What are your thoughts about how we're going to get through? What's your understanding of our situation? What do you need to know?" The same kinds of things I talked about advisors perhaps asking.

But just making sure that the less involved spouse knows where everything is. The person who's taking on the role of being more active, have you been overly diligent in that regard? Have you been pretending that you're going to live forever, and to make sure that you are actually doing the right things in terms of the non-investment side, so we get back to, is it in a book where all the family members know what the account information is, the telephone numbers for the advisor, and the insurance broker, and the pension folks? Are the passwords written down, is the will up to date? And for heaven's sake, don't put the will in the safety deposit box because then nobody can access it if you die.

These are the things that, in terms of what advisors can do, you can be sending out that kind of information to folks right now, about, "Here's a file, only open it if you want to know what to do for your family in the event of your demise, or incapacity or death." That gives people the opportunity to do it. But staying ignorant may allow you to be calmer for a while, if you are the non-involved spouse, but you're not necessarily doing your future self a favor, and you may not be doing your spouse a favor, either.

So this can be a time to kind of recalibrate. Can we talk about this a little more? Can I be a little bit more informed? It does not help anybody to be kind of financially, well, at the extreme, financially illiterate, but certainly financially unaware of important things that are going on that are affecting your own family here and now. Both people need to know where stuff is, at a minimum.

Ben Felix: Yeah, we've had a handful of people self select as the financial spouse not being comfortable, well, running the finances and communicating things clearly to the non-financial spouse. So even though there's one of the clients in the relationship, from our perspective, could probably do this on their own and do a great job. The part that they're missing is the ability to communicate what they're doing to the spouse and have the confidence to, well, to communicate it and know that what they're doing is exactly what they should be doing.

Dr. Moira Somers: When I was doing research for my book about why people seek out expert advice, there was a pretty strong evidence base that sometimes in marriages, we seek out experts, because it's helpful to have somebody else to blame when things go wrong. I'm seeing that happening now. Yes, the value of the financial advisor is being the burden bearer for bad news.

Dave Goetsch: And you know what, for me it is, it's a triangle. You have that third person that's the advisor, and then it's not across the table adversarial, two spouses, I present bad news, that person reacts, what do we do? You have a third person in this triangle, and it just takes a kind of pressure off where you can say, "Here's where we are. Let's talk about this. How do you feel?" Recognize other things, it's so helpful.

Dr. Moira Somers: Dave, I was wondering, as you indicate at the top of the [inaudible 01:08:05] that you were a single parent, I just was wondering a moment ago, what are the best practices for single parents? For people who, or folks who don't have a spouse? Or whether they have kids or not? What are some of the things that needs to be getting done there to really make sure that things are okay, even in worst case scenarios where, God forbid, you die or incapacitated? What do you think people need to get in place?

Dave Goetsch: Well, yeah, that's a great question. I mean, there, luckily, I have a new partner, and I live with her, and she's wonderful. So I recommend falling in love with a new person. So-

Dr. Moira Somers: Excellent.

Dave Goetsch: But that's pretty hard to do right now. If you haven't done it already since you're in quarantine. So let's say that is on hold until you can go meet another person. But all that stuff you're talking about, the will and the plan and sharing that with people, and I'm not great with that. And I also share custody with my kids' mom, and that has actually been really helpful during this time, because the kids can go between two houses, because there's a chance for us to clean the house when the kids aren't here and stuff like that.

But I am so sympathetic to the struggle, the family dynamic and struggle, whether they're two parents or one parent or the support network that all of us have patched together, through family members, grandparents, neighbors, babysitters, friends who would pick up their kids at school when you're at work, all that stuff's cut off. And so as much as we're talking about the things to be mindful of during this time, it's hard. It's hard to have any of that time, you're trying to do your job while your kids are learning.

So I think anything to end with is just try to be as kind as possible to yourself. You can say be kind to other people, and you try to do that, but I think it's easy to forget to be kind to yourself and forgiving, realizing how much pressure you might be under and how you might... Almost kind of denying it, like the way my head is, I'm such a, put your head down and just push your head and whatever. And so I'm sympathetic to everyone in the situation.

Ben Felix: Well, Moira and Dave, this has been a phenomenal discussion. And you both bring such a unique perspective and different types of expertise to thinking about all these issues. So we really appreciate you coming on again at short notice. And like I said, this was fantastic.

Dr. Moira Somers: It was lovely to talk to you.

Dave Goetsch: So excited for us to be on one more time and become regulars.

Cameron Passmore: Moira and Dave, thank you both very much. It was a very valuable discussion.

Dr. Moira Somers: Thank you.

Dave Goetsch: Thanks, guys.