Guest User

November 11, 2021

Financial Literacy, Kids and Money

Episode 175: Robin Taub: The Wisest Investment: Teaching Kids About Money

Guest User

November 11, 2021

Financial Literacy, Kids and Money

A Chartered Professional Accountant by training, Robin Taub (pronounced TOBE) began her career at KPMG, transitioned into real estate, and then landed in the complex world of derivatives marketing at Citibank Canada. Today, she’s a professional speaker and the author of The Wisest Investment, an update of the bestselling A Parent’s Guide to Raising Money-Smart Kids.

Robin lives in Toronto, where she and her husband have raised two (mostly) money-smart young adults. For fun, she loves to snowboard, cycle and (pre-Covid) go to concerts. She even got backstage once and met Bruce Springsteen. Ask her how – she loves talking about it!

Today we are tackling the vitally important subject of financial literacy from the standpoint of parents wanting to educate their children. We have a true expert on the show today to help us with this discussion, and we cannot wait to share this highly actionable and impactful conversation with our audience. Robin Taub is a former CPA turned author, and her book, The Wisest Investment, approaches the need to educate children from an early age, and the best strategies that parents can use for this task. Robin previously worked at Citibank in derivatives marketing and brings the high-level expertise of accounting to her book and this episode of the podcast. We strongly support her perspective on financial education and believe the framework she discusses here and shares in her book is well worth any parent's time. In our conversation, we cover all the important bases; financial values, summer jobs, investment apps, human capital, and everything in between, so make sure to listen with us to hear it all.

Key Points From This Episode:

Unpacking Robin's beliefs about the importance of financial education in the family. [0:02:55.2]
Financial education in the Canadian schooling system; Robin weighs in on its success. [0:04:08.6]
The assessment that parents can make about being role models to their children. [0:06:53.1]
The communication of values through the process of teaching and learning. [0:09:01.8]
Ideas for the appropriate time to start teaching kids about money. [0:11:40.5]
Using teachable moments to begin the conversation about money. [0:14:35.3]
Thoughts about allowances and best practices for parents. [0:18:09.7]
The evolution of money conversations as children grow older; increasing sophistication over the years. [0:23:46.9]
Benefits and considerations when introducing the concept of working for money. [0:27:30.3]
How social media can impact young people's spending, and how to mitigate these effects. [0:31:26.2]
Robin weighs in on the question of cellphones and when children should get one. [0:38:42.6]
Increasing financial responsibilities as children grow older, and beginning the conversation about investments. [0:40:37.3]
The impact of investment apps and how to minimize the damage they can do. [0:45:21.1]
Teaching children about philanthropy and the importance of sharing. [0:47:04.6]
Weighing up the idea of getting a financial advisor involved in your child's life. [0:49:27.3]
The concept of human capital and how to approach it in your family. [0:50:51.1]
Robin's thoughts on conversations about entrepreneurship. [0:54:48.6]
Breaking the cycle of financial problems in a household that is struggling. [0:57:54.3]
Minimizing entitlement in a family of greater financial means. [0:59:42.8]
Reasons for the shift that Robin made from her career as a CPA to becoming an author. [1:03:30.1]
Robin's personal definition of success; finding satisfaction in the important areas of life. [1:05:20.5]

Read The Transcript:

Cameron Passmore: So we'll jump right into the questions. So tell us off the top, why is teaching your kids about money, as you call it, the wisest investment?

Robin Taub: Because if we don't there are some serious consequences to both our kids and to us as parents. If you don't teach your kids about money they can start to form bad habits like living beyond their means that become difficult to break as they get older. They can also ... If you've ever struggled with money or you know people who have you know how stressful it can be. Money source is a huge source of stress for people and it can even lead to physical and mental health issues in your life. Yeah, sadly. Another consequence is that financial literacy is really a basic life skill. And without that basic life skill it could lead to financial struggles down the road. And then from the parents' perspective, if we don't teach our kids about money then we may end up supporting them. They may not become financially independent. And many Canadians can't afford to support their adult children financially. So it's really in everyone's best interest to make this investment in our kids' financial education.

Ben Felix: We've seen some initiatives in schools in Ontario. How's Canada generally doing on financial education within the school system?

Robin Taub: Very well because it is actually taking place across the country in every province and territory. There are courses on financial literacy. Each province takes a slightly different approach. Sometimes the course is mandatory, sometimes it's an elective. Sometimes it's integrated into the curriculum and sometimes it's a standalone course. So in Ontario, where I live, they have just revamped the grade nine math course to include a module on financial literacy. And the grade 10 careers course already had that. Had a section on financial literacy. So it's definitely penetrating the school system. The question then becomes, how effective are the teachers at teaching it? Are the kids absorbing it and taking it in? How well is it being taught? Parents still have such an important role to play.

Ben Felix: Yeah. That was my next question. If schools get better at it, is that enough or do parents still need to be focused on it?

Robin Taub: Well, an analogy is like sex education. It's being taught in school. Would most parents say that that's enough or do they still want to have that sex talk or multiple with their kids?

Ben Felix: That's great.

Robin Taub: It's the same thing with money. And there are studies that show that kids want their parents to be good role models for making financial decisions. They want to talk about money. They want to learn about money from their parents. And when they do talk about it at home they're more confident and optimistic about their financial futures and better prepared for the decisions they'll face. So I don't think school's enough. I think it really needs to be reinforced at home and built upon at home too.

Cameron Passmore: So all three of us are parents. What are some of the challenges that we either have faced or will face in teaching kids about money?

Robin Taub: Yeah. I think for a lot of parents the biggest challenge is feeling like they don't have the time or the knowledge to teach their kids about money and that is also backed up by a study that CPA Canada did. And it found that 78% of parents had tried but two thirds didn't feel they'd been successful and more than half didn't even know what information they needed. So parents have those challenges. Sometimes they feel like how can I teach this to my children if I'm not even doing this right myself? If I'm not doing a good job managing my own money then how am I supposed to teach them? And some parents are afraid that they're going to make mistakes. So they may kind of know what they're doing or they're stumbling through but they're afraid that they're going to make mistakes and that their kids are going to become more aware of the fact that they're not perfect. But clearly that's not the standard. No one is perfect. And mistakes are important because you can really learn from them and do things differently.

Cameron Passmore: How can a parent assess whether they're a good financial role model for their kids?

Robin Taub: Yeah. So that's one of my three strategies for parents to teach their kids about money. And the first one is to try to be a good financial role model so that you can lead by example. I mean your kids are watching and listening and learning from you so if you can model good financial behavior then they will absorb that. And in my book I talk about 11 healthy habits of financial management and those are practices so that parents can get their own financial house in order and being a good financial role model would mean knowing where you stand financially like preparing your net worth and living with a budget and living within your means. So saving and investing, having a safety net like an emergency fund or insurance. So those are four. I mean it's also things like walking the talk. Putting your money where your mouth is is important. Acting with intention when it comes to money in terms of how you save and spend and invest. So there's just so many ways that your behavior sends messages to your kids and it's really just becoming aware of those things.

Cameron Passmore: What if you're a parent that's not good with money? What can that person do to teach their kids?

Robin Taub: Yeah. Well that's the uncomfortable part where parents are like, how can I do a good job of this if I'm not doing this well myself? And I try to encourage parents that this is something that you and your kids can learn together and it's never too late to learn how to be better with money. So I would encourage parents to start with these 11 healthy habits and try to get their own house in order first. So it's an opportunity for them to kind of reset and do things better and then again discuss it with their kids. Maybe even be open about some of the things they feel they weren't don't well and why that's not sustainable and why it's worth trying to do things differently or make different choices, adapt different habits.

Ben Felix: I like that a lot. You mentioned spending with intention. How important do you think it is for parents to define and communicate the values of their families to their kids?

Robin Taub: Very. And that's my second strategy for parents. The first was being a good role model. And the second one is to communicate and use your values to help guide and prioritize financial decisions. And I find values is sometimes overlooked. If you know what values are, it's the things that are most important to you that you're willing to take a stand for and that you hold dear. They're like at your core of who you are. And sometimes we just don't pay attention to them and we take it for granted. They're almost like an invisible framework to ground financial decisions and for parents to help pass on the way they prioritize money decisions and how they set goals. So I think it's so important and in my book I have an exercise called the values validator which is a way to tease out what your top values are and I encourage parents to do it, partners to do it, and then you can compare and have your kids do it too and see where your values are the same, where they may be a bit different, what are the most important values that you want your kids to also have.

Cameron Passmore: Yeah. That was my next question. How do you do that? Do you create the values with them? Do you have it written down somewhere that it becomes kind of a touchstone for the family?

Robin Taub: It can be. They exercise is intended ... In the book it's like an actual physical thing and you can take it off and you could copy it and put it up somewhere where everyone can see it. I mean you can't force someone to have the same values as you because some of that is going to be maybe hardwired into their personalities as well. But I feel like it's that nature nurture thing. I think there's values in a family such as let's say education. Many families value that. And it is something that you can instill in your kids to value education because you can talk about why it's so important. So yeah, I think having some kind of physical structure to remind you of what your values are but just having these conversations with your kids. Like why is that so important? And if you don't have the opportunity for a good education, what are some of the consequences? If you do, what are some of the benefits? Again, it's all about talking about money and having these ongoing money talks.

Ben Felix: I've got young kids. Seven, five, three, and one I guess or one and a half or something.

Robin Taub: Whoa. Big family.

Ben Felix: Hard to remember the age of the last one at this point.

Robin Taub: Oh, that poor fourth kid.

Ben Felix: At what age do you think it's appropriate to start teaching kids about money?

Robin Taub: Yeah. I say around five because that's when most kids go to preschool and they're around other kids and they're aware of what other kids have and do and they're just becoming more little humans at that point. But some kids are precocious and they're really interested earlier. Like I'm curious actually what you found with your kids. Like do you think five was around the time they started expressing interest or was it a little earlier?

Cameron Passmore: As a backdrop, you said Ben, you were quite transparent with your kids. You mentioned on a podcast a couple of months or so ago. So I'm really curious to your answer on this.

Ben Felix: We're extremely transparent about it. My seven year old is at the point now where he's actually asking what we talk about on the podcast each week. So I think that's really cool. My five year old just turned five like a week ago. Two weeks ago. And when he was four he was asking all sorts of questions. But I think it's because I would talk to the I guess then six year old about stuff.

Robin Taub: And he'd hear it.

Ben Felix: But we'd talk about budgeting and buying toys and why we shouldn't buy this toy to save money for other stuff. We talk very openly about it.

Robin Taub: Yeah. I think you take your cue from your kids. So once they start asking questions and expressing an interest, that's an opening for you as a parent to start using these teachable moments. But I remember my son when he was like 10 he used to ask my husband if he had a good quarter. He would be like, "Dad, did you have a good quarter?"

Ben Felix: That's amazing.

Robin Taub: Because he has his own business. So it's so funny what they pick up on and that now you're son's asking like what topics are you covering on the podcast. So that's great. Build on that.

Cameron Passmore: So I had a client once ask me to look into this mortgage strategy. So it was a book that I brought home. I forget the title of it but in the title was mortgage. So I left it on the counter and it was there for a few weeks. I didn't think much about it. Then my daughter came to me in a bit of a panic one night petrified that we were going to lose the house. She didn't know what a mortgage was and she would have been 18, 19 at the time. But she thought because a mortgage was somehow bad, attached to a house, we were going to lose the house and she was petrified.

Robin Taub: Interesting.

Cameron Passmore: I said, "No, no Anna. It's just something for work. Don't worry about it. Everything is fine." So it is amazing what they pick up on.

Robin Taub: But did you also take that time to explain to a mortgage was? Do you remember?

Cameron Passmore: Oh sure. Yes. We spent a lot of time. I wasn't nearly as transparent as Ben was and lesson learned. But yeah, my kids have turned out to be very good savers and pretty serious about money and they link it very much to freedom now which is interesting.

Robin Taub: Yeah. That is interesting. I just remember also that word mortgage was really scary. It just sounded so adult, grown up and serious. Like when I was growing up I remember I didn't know what it was but it just sounded like so much gravitas. We just have to demystify some of these concepts with our kids.

Cameron Passmore: Well because you knew from playing Monopoly, mortgages are bad.

Robin Taub: Yeah. True.

Ben Felix: Other than conversationally or as it comes up like we were just talking about, are there specific strategies that parents can use to start introducing money to young kids?

Robin Taub: Yeah. So we just talked about role modeling your values and then we kind of touched on this idea of teachable moments. So that is really I would say the best way to deal with the fact that parents feel like they don't have the time or the opportunity. Because these teachable moments are going to crop up. Like you leave a book out with a scary title and your kid asks you about it. I mean you could plant those things around the house. Personal finance books and your kids might see them and they would ask about them. Anytime your transacting with money, anytime you're do anything, or like you said, you're talking about a toy that they want, is an opportunity to have a little money lesson. And they're going to crop up naturally. Just make sure that the information that you share with a young kids is age appropriate. So you're not going to be getting into that mortgage conversation with a five or seven year old but you can talk about what is money and how do you make change? How do the coins and the bills work? And I'm going to show you guys this multi slotted piggy bank that I discovered is great because it has four slots for save, spend, donate and invest.

So this is such a tangible way to talk to your kids about the choices they have once they earn money. And a young kid's going to put coins or maybe even bills in these slots. So yeah, that pig is great. I found it on a mastermind but it's made by this company called Money Savvy Generation. And yeah, it's a great tool and a great gift even.

Ben Felix: So that's a really cool idea. It's using physical money. Do you think physical money ... Because we don't keep a lot of physical money-

Robin Taub: Well that's the other side of it. Yeah, I know. Most parents now don't really have cash around. I do still think ... And I have my little jar of coins for my prop. I still think showing little kids cash, coins and bills ... Especially Canadian money because it is ... It could be a lesson in not just math but history too. Our coins are interesting and our bills are colorful and engaging. Like we even have that vertical $10 note. Like it's cool. So kids might find that interesting to look at. And actually the Canadian mint has some resources on their website and other people have told me that if you're ever in ... I mean you're in Ottawa Cameron. Are you as well Ben?

Ben Felix: Yeah. Very close. I live just outside of Ottawa.

Robin Taub: I don't know if you guys have done field trips there with your kids but people tell me it's like a great place to go to get your younger kids excited about money. And it's because it's tangible and concrete. Whereas digital concepts are a little more conceptual and harder for a little kid to understand. So I think starting off at the beginning they might still get like some cash here and there for allowance, birthdays, tooth fairy, holidays. It's a good place to start with young kids. But for sure as they get older you're probably going to be doing more things digitally with them. And there's lots of apps now coming out to help facilitate that.

Ben Felix: I was trying really hard not to laugh a second ago because last night I caught my three year old with a quarter in her mouth. I don't even know where she got it. Like we don't keep cash. I was like, "Where did you get this and what are you doing?" Maybe that's a-

Robin Taub: I'm guessing it was in the couch cushions.

Ben Felix: Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. So I guess three's maybe too young for physical money.

Robin Taub: Yeah. Because they put everything in their mouth at that age. Yeah, that's a good point.

Cameron Passmore: I have a question. You mentioned allowance. I had a question about allowance. So growing up when I was quite young I remember the concept of getting an allowance and my parents would miss weeks so I ended up have effectively an accounts receivable that always felt bad trying to collect it because we didn't grow up in a household that had a lot of money around. And it ended up my parents taught me instead of asking for money they taught me how to get a paper route and I had a little worm business. And this is when I was very young. So they taught me how to go find my own funds. So I'm curious if you have a thought around allowances in general and do they work and is there a strategy around that?

Robin Taub: I think what you're describing is really common. Either parents forget to give their kids allowance. We forgot a lot. And then yeah, it gets awkward to remind your parents to give you money or they don't have cash on hand now because ... Especially since COVID. No one's taking cash. You're mostly using debit, credit, phone. So I mean going back to what's an allowance for, it is a really good teaching tool because it gives kids the opportunity to take some ownership and responsibility for money and make those choices of save it, spend it, share it, invest it. And then other parents want to tie it to chores so that their kids understand what it takes to earn money. So in a lot of families that's really important too to get their kids to do their chores and they're going to pay them and all that. So I think that's why allowance is such a ... It's an ongoing topic of conversation like how best to use it. And I think that ideally your kids get some small amount of money regularly that they have the responsibility for making the choices and managing. And then obviously if they go above and beyond in the household you can pay them. But I think a lot of families want their kids to do their chores out of a sense of family responsibility.

Cameron Passmore: Yeah. Exactly.

Robin Taub: No one's paying me to do all this stuff around the house and there's always a lot to do.

Cameron Passmore: That's where it always felt weird to me to pay to do what you should be doing.

Robin Taub: Yeah. Like just to pull your weight and help. It shouldn't just be on one parent. Or once they're old enough to help out whether it's just setting the table or ... It's meaningful. So I think you also touched on like once you become old enough to get an odd job like a paper route. What was the other thing you said Cameron? Worm business?

Cameron Passmore: My dad was an active fisherman so I used to harvest and sell worms to all his buddies.

Robin Taub: Oh, that's great. Yeah. Kids get creative and they find ways to make money. Babysitting is a classic. Because I think obviously ... Kids will find it a lot harder and they'll be more deliberate and thoughtful about their own money than they will if they're just spending your money. So whether it's an allowance. They're going to have some spending needs and you're giving them money anyways so it's better to give it to them as allowance because they will think longer and harder about how to use it. Now if they work for it I think it's even more meaningful. Because they know how many hours they've had to work to earn whatever it is to be able to buy whatever they want or save or invest. So I think once they become preteens and then teens working is a really important lesson.

Ben Felix: So it sounds like using an allowance as a teaching tool earlier on but then if they want additional income later, then working is a sort of separate thing.

Robin Taub: Yeah. That's how I look at it. And I think the idea is you want to start early with all of this money education. You want to lay the foundation and especially when they're young you want them to be able to make mistakes and screw up and blow their money and not bail them out and all that stuff when the stakes are low. It's when they become older where the stakes become a little bit higher, maybe they're in university and they're encountering credit cards and that's when you can make mistakes that are a little more expensive and a little harder to dig out of. So the sooner you can start the better.

Ben Felix: Now, what about ... So allowance as a teaching tool, working for income later on. Do you think allowance should increase as kids get older?

Robin Taub: Well yeah. I know you mean. The amount of money a kid will need as they get older definitely goes up because they're more independent, they're doing things on their own. Their lifestyle becomes a little more independent where they're going out with friends or participating in things, going to concerts and events. So yeah, I think their money needs go up. And it's really up to the parents to decide is this going to be covered by an allowance? Do we have expectations that they will work for it? Who's paying for what? So again, a conversation needs to take place where you talk about what their budget looks like so to speak. Like a simple budget. But what are their spending needs? What are their saving needs? Are you planning at this stage for post secondary? What does it all look like and how's it going to be funded essentially? Like parent's contribution, kids. How does this all look?

Ben Felix: Yeah. It sounds like it probably ties back to a family values discussion.

Robin Taub: Absolutely. Because again, what are your goals? Hopefully they're connected to your values because then they'll be more meaningful and compelling. And what do those goals cost essentially? Especially if it is university because that's a huge expense that takes a lot of planning in advance. So yeah, I think that for sure ... It doesn't necessarily mean their allowance has to go up. It really depends who is responsible for those costs. But for sure their wants and needs will go up as they get older.

Cameron Passmore: How do these money conversations change as they get older? Like do you have rules of thumb or certain ages where you can have certain topical discussions?

Robin Taub: Well, for sure. Any information you share at any age has to be appropriate for that stage of their lives so that they take it in and it's useful. And it has to be suitable for their temperament and their maturity level. So you have to know your own kid. And I'm sure, Ben you have four kids, they're probably different personalities. They're young still. But Cameron with your two, they're in their 20s. I'm sure they were different what they could absorb and take in when they were younger based on their personalities. I know with my two it was like that.

So the way I structured the book to give parents a framework for thinking about this is I have these five pillars of money which is not that different from the piggy bank. So first you have to earn it and then you can choose to save, spend, share, or invest. I broke the stages of childhood into four different categories which are young kids, preteens, teens, and young adults. So within each of those four age categories, those five pillars of money, they never change. They're always the same. It's always those earn, safe, spend, share and invest. But the specific topics and examples and teaching points and family activities and discussions will be very specific to that age group and what's going on and will get more sophisticated as your kids get older. And the whole idea as I said earlier is to start early and build on it.

Ben Felix: How do you do it and when do you do it? Like is it a every fourth Sunday night kind of thing?

Robin Taub: No. It's ongoing. I think again, use those teachable moments. When something comes up to take advantage of it. Like we never had a special sit down time. It was sort of something that was, like Ben, more transparent in our household. My husband also has a financial background and had his own business. So it was just not something that we shied away from. The topics in the book could be a guideline to make sure that at every stage you've kind of covered the basics that a kid would need to know. Like what would they need to know about credit cards when they're a preteen? Not as much as they would need to know as a teenager but they might want to know what it is and how it's different from their debit card. And again, that will come up every time you use it. If they're out with you and you're grocery shopping or you're going through a drive through there's always those opportunities. Like another example would be your taxes. They might see you in April scrambling or maybe you're very organized and you do it ahead of time. And you can talk to them about what your taxes are. And then once they're old enough to file their own tax return they have a little bit of a foundation.

So what you might talk about when they're younger is going to be really different in that area than what you're going to talk about once they're working or they're old enough to file their own tax return. So just age appropriate information is so important.

Cameron Passmore: My kids love doing their tax returns with me as soon as they get their slips.

Robin Taub: Why? Because they think they're getting a refund?

Cameron Passmore: They just enjoy it. We do it online. It's very easy and yeah they do get a refund because they're maximizing their RSP so yeah.

Robin Taub: Yeah. That's great that they love doing it. My kids come over and they bring all their slips and we do it kind of together like similarly. We use online software. I don't know that they love it but they definitely like when they're getting money back.

Cameron Passmore: Right.

Robin Taub: I find it kind of fun which is a little sad but I am an accountant by training so I don't mind at all.

Ben Felix: We talked earlier about kids starting to work odd jobs and stuff like that. To what extent do you think parents should encourage or push even their kids to start working when they're old enough to do so?

Robin Taub: Well again, I think with my kids I think it was when they started working that they really got the message about the value of a dollar. I feel like nothing really hits home the way working does. Because teenagers are not going to get the greatest jobs. My son was like a dishwasher and worked kind of kitchen jobs for a while and those are like tough jobs. My daughter was more like in an office job kind of person. Like she was working in the summers at my husband's office and then in an accounting firm and stuff. So I feel like working ... It's going to depend on the kid too and some parents are worried about school. How much time do you want your kid working if they don't have to? If they're not in a financially stressed situation. Maybe they're better off arguably focusing on their studies in school and extracurriculars. So it really depends. Like my niece and nephew, they both taught skiing. Ski racing and coaching and stuff on the weekend. So that was kind of a way to combine what they like to do and a sport thing with actually making pretty good money.

I think it depends on your situation. But maybe once they're old enough to work in the summers. What else would they be doing in the summer? I don't know. Some kids go to camp. Some kids take more school. But I think summer jobs are kind of the perfect time. What did you find Cameron with your kids?

Cameron Passmore: In terms of working?

Robin Taub: Yeah. Like did they work during their high school years?

Cameron Passmore: Yeah. My daughter worked at a restaurant since she was 14, 15 and my son had a paper route and then he started working here, what, four years or so Ben?

Ben Felix: Yep.

Cameron Passmore: So he would have been 16, 17, 18 when he started with us here.

Robin Taub: Yeah.

Cameron Passmore: They didn't start as young as I did. I may have been a little too eager at a young age to start working.

Robin Taub: I think it depends too on your family's needs. It's values and needs though. If a parent can't afford to support their kid and pay an allowance and the kid wants to do things, then they're going to have to get some kind of money coming in whether it is a paper route. I know my assistant said she had a paper route too from a young age. You do see a lot of kids babysitting or tutoring. Some slightly older kids tutor younger kids. That's a good way to make some extra money. I think every situation is going to be unique but I feel like working is very valuable.

Ben Felix: I agree. Personally I worked every summer I think since I was 12 doing pretty hard dirty manual labor type jobs.

Robin Taub: Really? Construction things?

Ben Felix: Yeah. Construction. I worked in the yard of a logging company for a summer. I loved it.

Robin Taub: You loved it. Did it make you appreciate the value of an education where you would maybe have a desk job or a job that wasn't physically demanding?

Ben Felix: I love that I had the experience. I didn't love doing the work.

Robin Taub: Well that's just it. It allows you also to eliminate things that you don't want to do in the future or to figure out what you do want to do. Like I think any time you're working, you're out in the real word, you're meeting people, you're networking, it's all good. I just think some kids it might be really hard to balance a part-time job and school and extra depending on what it is.

Cameron Passmore: I was butcher all through high school through my teens. That's why I've got this side of beef on my wall and the art on my wall. I loved it. I loved everything about it. It was a lot of heavy lifting and a lot of dirty work but I loved it. I loved working with clients. Customers in the store. It was great.

Robin Taub: Wow. That's an interesting one.

Cameron Passmore: So next topic for you. And I was going to ask about social media impact on spending but I think social media must have an impact on all of this. So even when we add social media what do you think of in relationship to what your specialty is?

Robin Taub: Okay. I think social media has ... Out of let's say the five pillars of money, I feel like it has the most impact on spending for sure. Because it's just another way for kids to feel peer pressure. It's so much more intense because your kids can see what everyone else has and does and it's in this perfectly curated way. And research shows that our minds automatically make upwards social comparisons. So we compare ourselves with people that have more and then we end up feeling bad about ourselves or our situation. And these studies show that kids that spend too much time on social media can lead to dissatisfaction with life, bad mood and it can also lead to over spending. Like there was one study that they surveyed 900 Canadians. 25% of those people said that FOMO, the fear of missing out, was their main motivation to shop. And 70% thought that almost a quarter of their debt was from FOMO overspending. Yeah. That's crazy. And there's now social commerce which is the combination of basically social media, eCommerce, and peer pressure. So you can actually buy things within these social media apps now. It's like integrated with Shopify and with Square on the payment side so it's like there's no friction.

Cameron Passmore: It's interesting with my kids. So Anna went through the spending phase but she's through that now big time and now it's more about experiences. So she sees people, for example, traveling. She just went on a fantastic trip to Vancouver and Whistler. So she's migrating more towards spending on memorable events like that. Any ideas on how we can ... And this just happened to her. I didn't coach her. It just happened. Do you have any suggestions on how we can communicate with kids the importance of spending money on memorable events as opposed to more stuff?

Robin Taub: Right. Because the research does show ... Like the happiness research shows that people become dissatisfied with their stuff very quickly because there's always better stuff, newer stuff available. Whereas things like experiences, they really stay with you. I think the way to go about it with your kids is to ask them, "What was the last thing that you were dying to buy?" And something significant that they would have had to save up for. So with my son, for him, it's probably some kind of musical equipment because he's a musician. And with my daughter, she's more into fashion so maybe a purse or something. And just ask them, "Did it really make you happy? How long did that last? Was it worth it? The time and effort that you would have had to work or the amount of money that you spent on it?" And then compare that to something that you did recently. Now it's a little tricky with COVID because we weren't able to have a lot of those experiences that make us happy sadly. But if it was like a concert or a hockey game or a trip to Vancouver, whatever it was. Like what lingers with you longer? What makes you happy? What's your happy place? When you think about what really lights you up is it that thing that bought or is it something that you did?

Like I know my answer. Like I like nice things too but I think in our case we did a lot of traveling with our kids when they were younger. And even when they were older too. And some of those experiences ... We went to Iceland with our daughter one year and we did such cool activities. Like we went cold water snorkeling and we kayaked in a glacial lake and we went horse back riding on this volcanic beach. Like oh my god. Yeah. And I really remember a lot of things about that trip because it was so different. And just concerts. Like I remember taking my son to ... Avril Lavigne was the first concert I think I took him to. And she's from your neck of the woods. Avril. And she was so big when my kids were like, I don't know, 12 and 10. And just how important music is in our household and how much we value going to concerts and seeing live events and stuff like that. Yeah, those things really bring me happiness.

Cameron Passmore: It's funny. My daughter actually when backstage at the Avril concert.

Robin Taub: Really?

Cameron Passmore: I think that was her first concert as well. And she has that picture of her and Avril arm and arm on her wall.

Robin Taub: How'd did she get backstage?

Cameron Passmore: It's one of those things you pay to play.

Robin Taub: Oh. It was like one of those meet and greets.

Cameron Passmore: Yeah. One of the meet and greets. Exactly.

Robin Taub: Yeah. My son did that with Todd Rundgren which is like his musical idol. I don't know if you know him but anyways he's amazing. And I met Springsteen backstage and I'm like this massive Springsteen fan. So like nothing tops that to me. That's the greatest thing ever. I think they get that. And I think they can also understand that sometimes it feels really good to give instead of receiving. You can ask them, like what was a ... Or talk about a thoughtful gift that they bought you. I just was talking about my daughter bought my husband one year this scratch map of all the places that he traveled to. Just stuff like that. Like a gift that really resonates with someone or the gift you gave me. These cards that are so great. It's nice to get something that's thoughtful.

Ben Felix: I think kids do get it but I also think you're right that it requires reflection. Like asking them that question about what was more memorable, that thing that you bought or that experience that you had or giving or whatever. I've definitely seen that with my kids. I give them an allowance and both of the boys really wanted to buy these dinosaur toys so I said okay. We went to the toy store and we bought them. And two weeks later they weren't playing with them. And I asked them, like, "Hey, you guys are playing with these anymore. How do you feel about the money that you spent on it?" And it was definitely a good opportunity to teach.

Cameron Passmore: Wow. That's great.

Robin Taub: Exactly. Because I remember my kids ... Toys when they were little were really trendy. Like there was always something. Like silly bands, webkins, whatever it was. And they would always want whatever the kids at school were playing with in the playground. And then you'd be at the store and they would be like, I want, I want, I want. So the first thing is like, "Well, you have some money in your piggy bank or wherever. Do you want to use your own money for that?" Or maybe you offer to split it with them. Or sometimes you'll say like, "Oh remember that last thing that you absolutely had to have? Where is that actually? Can you even find it in the house?" So I think you're right. It does require reflection and again, that about bringing more mindfulness because it's just so easy to get caught up in all this frenzy. There's no friction around spending and it's like accumulating stuff, stuff, stuff. And you do have to step back and go wait a minute. Is this really helping me get towards my goals that are important to me or am I just kind of wasting money on silly things?

Cameron Passmore: So we just touched on material purchases and social media. Cellphones kind of tie both of those things together. At what age to do you think kids should be allowed to get a cellphone?

Robin Taub: So the average age is 10.

Cameron Passmore: Wow.

Robin Taub: Yeah. I researched it when I wrote the book. And I was talking to my assistant about this yesterday because I know that my kids got their first flip phone cell phone ... So my kids are now 24 and 26 so they were around 12, 13 and they shared it. And it was only for like when they were going out. Like they were going to a lot of bar and bat mitzvahs and we would have to pick them up. There was like a car pool. It was for logistical reasons. And they weren't like text ... This was a long time ago. But now it's like is a cellphone a need or a want? Like a lot of parents communicate with their kids that way. So the average age is 10. And they're probably smartphones because trying to find a flip phone now. Not easy. And I think you have to think about, how responsible are they? What are they using it for? Let's say they babysit at night and you want to be able to reach them or they take public transit to school. There's so many reasons I think you can justify them having one.

Honestly, how do they communicate with their friend and their peers and everything without one these days. But then it's like okay, well who's paying for it? And that's again, a potential teachable moment. Some kids have to pay for their own cell phones right from the get go. Like figure out where to get it, what it's going to cost you, how you're going to use it, what kind of plan you need. Other people are lucky and their parents pay for it. So I think there are so many issues wrapped up in this. Don't you think?

Ben Felix: Absolutely.

Cameron Passmore: And it links to my next question which is as kids get older, how and when do you think they should be given more financial responsibility?

Robin Taub: Well, that goes back to what we were saying earlier. How much money do they need? What does their life look like? So when they're younger, they're getting an allowance, maybe it's a rule of thumb. Once they become preteens and teens any money that they are bringing in whether it's allowance or working is kind of based on how they're living their lives. What they're doing, where they're spending it and how they want to save. So I think they need to start taking more responsibility so that they can learn from their mistakes and build on that knowledge like we talked about before. So whether that responsibility comes in the form of more allowance that they're getting less frequently, so they have to manage it over a longer period of time. Like a month instead of weekly. Whether it's in the form of job which we all know, especially if it's working for ... Like not in your family business but externally, you have a boss. You have someone you're reporting to. All that stuff. Like that really teaches them to be responsible. So yeah, I think it's such a good opportunity at that stage, teenagers. I think that's a critical time. I really do. I mean you're not there yet Ben but I think Cameron, you know what I mean.

Then once they finish high school they're either working or they're continuing their education. So at that point you want them to have some experience with money and you don't want them going off to university let's say and they're on their own for the first time and they've really never managed money and all of a sudden they're renting an apartment and they're shopping for food and their paying for the tuition. You want them to have some grounding in this.

Ben Felix: How do you think parents should coach teenage kids to set financial goals?

Robin Taub: Back to the values conversation. So if you have a chance to do that exercise you understand what's most important to you then you can tie your goals back to your values. So whether it's paying for school, traveling. Maybe some kids don't want to get a car. I don't know anymore. But I think when teenagers are living at home if they are working it's really mostly to fund their spending but maybe they're saving hopefully a little bit. But once they get a bit older the stakes become higher. It becomes a little more serious and a little more real.

Cameron Passmore: At what age do you think you can actually start talking about investments with kids?

Robin Taub: Yeah. So it depends what you mean by investments. Like if we're talking about managing a portfolio and securities, I think that probably the earliest would be high school. And there's courses in school that get into investing and clubs. And university age like in the 20s. But even younger I think you can get into stuff like interest. Like just even once they open their first bank account when they outgrow their piggy bank and they open a youth account. The bank pays you interest. Maybe not very much but when you have your money in a bank they pay you interest. If you have to borrow money then you have to pay interest. You can talk about compound interest once they get a little older because they might be learning that in school hopefully. That's a great way to tie math and financial literacy together. So the power of compound interest and how it really helps your money grow. Even young kids once they've accumulated some money they might have enough to open a term deposit or a guaranteed investment certificate and you can talk about locking in your money and getting a little more interest and all that stuff.

I don't know. I mean a lot of kids these days are really interested in stocks because it's the meme stocks. And my son who's 26 told me yesterday that he knows someone from high school that just made like $5 million on a NFT. On the non-fungible token. And he showed me. It was like that monkey thing. I'm sure you've seen that pixilated monkey. And it was like, "Really? You actually know someone?" You think these are urban myths. So I think some kids are going to be super interested in that kind of stuff. Cryptocurrencies, all the latest stuff like that. So really again, take your cue from your kids. What are they asking you about? What are they showing an interest in?

Ben Felix: There's some research that's been done so far on the investing apps like on Robinhood or we have Well Simple Trade in Canada. And what we're learning from that research is that the apps are designed to basically encourage what most people would say is pretty bad behavior from an investing perspective. Do you think kids need additional guidance on that?

Robin Taub: Yes. And I know in Canada, I think the rules are different here. In Canada versus the US. I don't think a minor is able to open an investment account here. And I know that what I did when my kids were younger was I had a discount brokerage account opened for them in trust. Like it was me in trust for each of them. Because they had gotten some money for their bar and bat mitzvahs when they turned 13 and I wanted to invest it for them. So in Canada there's different regulations. But I think still there's parents who are opening an account like a trading account and they're doing it with their kids because that's legally the only way they can open the account. But maybe it's their kid's money in there and they're involved. So I think yeah. I think parents do need to be around and guiding because it's really easy to get carried away. And these apps and tools are designed to get you. Like they're just as addictive as social media in terms of how they've gamified things. And they're intended to keep you on the platform and to give you FOMO and tell you what other people are buying and doing and like oh, your stock hit this or that milestone.

So I would think that very few kids, teenagers or even 20s are equipped to do that on their own without possibly making expensive mistakes. Maybe some parents don't even feel like they're comfortable supervising that type of activity if they're not used to doing that themselves. Yeah, this really opened up like a whole ... These meme stocks during the pandemic have really opened up a whole can of worms.

Cameron Passmore: No kidding.

Ben Felix: Definitely.

Cameron Passmore: Another question for you. When are kids ready to learn about philanthropy and any advice around that?

Robin Taub: Yeah. I love that question. I'm so glad you brought it up. Because I talk about share in the book. It's one of the five pillars and it's in every chapter. And I think kids are ready to learn about that young. About giving back. And it doesn't have to be like fancy philanthropy. It could just be as simple as giving your old toys or your old clothes to families in need or others who are less fortunate than them. And I think it's so important to start it early because it really helps to put things in perspective for your kids that not everyone lives the same way that they do and it may help them appreciate what they have and combat some of this FOMO and social media feelings of I don't have enough, I'm not good enough by just putting things into perspective and giving back and helping others. So I think it can start really young with that. You can do things together as a family. Like my daughter and I used to volunteer at Soup Sisters which was an organization in Toronto where you went to like a facility and you made different recipes of soup. There was different teams, different stations and then they would bring someone in from the charity that it was supporting. It was usually shelters for women and children. And we would do it with her friends and their moms.

So there's ways. I know other families that have volunteered together at Out of the Cold which is like a soup kitchen held at synagogues and churches in Toronto. So there's so many things you can find that you can bring your kids along for. And then obviously as they get older they can get involved with things that they're passionate about. Causes, charities or with family, sometimes they have their own foundations and they can get involved that way. And even in schools. I feel like the schools do a great job with fundraising and raising money for causes. I know my niece was involved. Even during COVID they did a virtual Terry Fox fundraiser where you just had to do activities and clock it. So we used to go for these long hikes because it would count and she was on the top of the leader board. There's so many great ways kids can get involved with that through school. It's so important just to broaden their perspective.

Ben Felix: For families that work with a financial advisor like Cameron and I are portfolio managers at a wealth management firm. We have clients. The clients often have children. Do you think there's value in parents connecting their young adult children, so when they're a big older, with their financial advisor?

Robin Taub: Absolutely. I think the issue becomes ... Like I'm sure you've seen those ads where they're like, "You're not still using mom and dad's guy are you?" Right?

Cameron Passmore: Right.

Robin Taub: So there's that generational difference in how 20 somethings are managing money now. A lot more technology's involved. And there's the stats that show a very, very high percentage of people when they inherit money they either change advisors or they stay with their own. So I don't think you can force it but I think it's a great idea to introduce a relationship and see where it goes. See if there's a connection. It also gives like a 20 something an opportunity to meet with a real person and see what that model looks like. Because it's very different than like a robo advisor or whatever they may have been using based on how much they had to invest. So yeah, I think it's a really good idea. And I think you have to just find those points of connection. What would be a meeting that would be helpful to all parties?

Ben Felix: So two words that my kids will tell you I say all the time to them about money is human capital and how important it is to focus on human capital. Play the long game. Don't get hung up if you have a bad day at the restaurant. You don't get a lot of tips. Don't worry about it. Just keep your head down. Do good work. Keep learning and build up your human capital because that will help you long term with your financial capital. Do you have any guidance on how to coach kids on the concept of human capital and specifically how that might relate to furthering their education or just their general attitude towards it?

Robin Taub: Well first of all it sounds like that's like a very strongly held value for you. Education under human capital. And sounds like your kids are absorbing that. They hear that message. I mean Warren Buffett famously says the more you learn the more you earn. I think that there's different ways we can talk about that with our kids. Maybe it just starts with what you do for a living and what education you needed to have to be able to do that. And you can even once they're a bit older go online and look at what different careers like what they pay and what the degree costs. Right now computer science, engineering. Those jobs are super high demand. So you can talk about what kind of educational background those jobs require. And then another thing is like if you think of your own network of family and friends, I'm sure they all have different careers, different jobs. And we used to joke around. My husband and I wanted to do like a job fair of like just people we knew, like family friends, because we had so many friends, they were lawyers, doctors, dentists, like worked in investing. All kinds of interesting things.

And it's just an opportunity for your kid to ask some questions about what they do and what they like about their job. Maybe they don't like where they went to university. Because it's surprising. Actually a lot of business owners, they take circuitous routes to where they end up. It's not always what you expect where they began. I think some kids, like maybe at school they're learning a little bit about ... I don't know how effective the careers course is. My kids didn't take it that seriously unfortunately. But I think it is a ... If it's not taken seriously it's a missed opportunity because they were supposed to be teaching you some practical skills. Like how to write a cover letter and do your resume and that also gets you thinking about, okay, what other experience do I need? How do I start building my resume with outside things? Even with summer jobs and my network and all that stuff. Because I agree with you. Going back to what you said earlier Ben about doing like a manual labor job versus like a job that requires a lot of intellectual capital, knowledge workers had a huge advantage during COVID. You can even talk about that.

Ben Felix: Yeah. That's a great talking point for kids.

Robin Taub: Yeah. Again, depending on their age. I don't know if I would do that with your five year old. Maybe Cameron's kids. For sure my kids definitely. We definitely talked about that. Because my son is a musician and he was working as a bartender. So he was like first to lose his job. He was working at an events space in the distillery district in Toronto and he's got a university degree in philosophy. But he was trying to figure out what he wanted to do and he wanted a chance to still do his music stuff. It was a physical job that had to be done in person and he was not working. Whereas my daughter who's actually a CPA also ... And she actually just passed her level one CFA today.

Cameron Passmore: Wow. Congratulations.

Robin Taub: Yay. I'm so proud of her. So she was working throughout the pandemic. She switched accounting firms but she was able to continue doing her job from home throughout the whole pandemic. Their degrees probably cost around the same but they went to different schools. She went to Western, he went to Queens but the career paths that came out of those two degrees, philosophy or business, very different.

Ben Felix: What about entrepreneurship as opposed to talking about education and human capital? Many people don't end up with higher levels of education but start successful businesses. How can parents talk to their kids about entrepreneurship and that path?

Robin Taub: I know. It's almost like sometimes it's an advertisement for dropping out of school if you look at Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg. But I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Don't do that. I think, I was actually on a ... We did this meetup. Like a economic and financial book club meetup a couple weeks ago and someone brought up the point that everything he learned was as a kid in his parents' business. So there was a family business. It sounded like it might have been retail. And from a really young age he was just kind of at his parents' feet in that business. So I think a lot of kids are exposed to entrepreneurship that way. Through some kind of family or friends that have a small business. There's so many small businesses in Canada. So that's one way kids get exposed to it. And again, you have to ask yourself, are entrepreneurs made or born? Is that something that you can be taught or is it something that is kind of hardwired where you really want to build something and start something and you don't want to work for someone else? Like it's not going to be for everyone.

I think high school courses now are way better. More sophisticated than they were when I was going through high school which was a long time ago. But my assistant who graduated from school about five years ago in B.C., She told me she took a grade 12 course where it was an entrepreneurship course and at the end they had to actually come up with a business idea and a business plan. And hers was about healthy hummus. You know that middle eastern dip? And they had to scout locations and really get into creating business plans. So that's in grade 12. For sure once you hit ... I think there's now probably undergrad and for sure MBAs that just specialize in entrepreneurship. But another really cool thing is like these extracurricular programs in high school like junior achievement. They have one that's just for entrepreneurship. I think the economics clubs of Canada has stuff that encourages ... I think there's so many startup organizations that encourage it. I feel like it's such a big thing now in Canada and everywhere.

Ben Felix: Yeah. We actually ... PWL sponsored the junior achievement entrepreneurship program and me and one of the other guys that doesn't work here anymore but used to work here, we both volunteered in that program. It was a very impressive program.

Robin Taub: Oh, you did?

Ben Felix: Yeah.

Robin Taub: In your local community?

Ben Felix: Yeah.

Robin Taub: I'm curious. Was it like a four week program or was it ...

Ben Felix: Oh geeze. This was years ago now. No, it was longer than that. I don't remember how the time was divided up. If it was like a semester. Do they have even semesters in-

Cameron Passmore: It was a whole semester for sure.

Ben Felix: Was it a semester? Yeah.

Robin Taub: Yeah. I'm sure the kids got a lot of value out of that. Those are the kinds of things that can stay with them.

Ben Felix: Yeah.

Cameron Passmore: What can parents who may find themselves in a household that struggles financially do to help their children avoid having money or money psychology issues in the future?

Robin Taub: Right. So yeah. It is that fine line. Because we said earlier, you want to be transparent with your kids and you want to be honest and when they have questions you want to answer them as honestly as you can. However, you also don't want to worry them excessively especially about things they have no control over and that they're not responsible for. And really as parents we are the ones that are responsible for managing the household and the finances. Again, you can try to be open about the mistakes that you've made and what you've learned and the changes you've made that are hopefully healthier. Again, I'll emphasize that you really want to take into account your child's age and maturity. Stress confidentiality and some kids may not have the temperament to deal with it. Like if they're anxious already.

But on the other hand, kids are pretty smart and they know what's going on. They watch and they listen and they hear a lot more. So I think in the end you're better off talking to them about it. It's like any parenting conversation. You have to remember who's the parent and who's the child. And I think some things you want to shield them from. As they get older it's a whole different story. And I know lots of kids have had to grow up fast because either financially or for some other reason their parents just couldn't provide what they wanted to or used to. And every situation is a little bit different. So I don't know. There's no easy answer to that one.

Ben Felix: What about the opposite I guess if you can call it that situation where a family is very affluent and maybe the family is spending a lot of money on their housing and on vacations and all that kind of stuff? Is there anything that parents in that situation can do to avoid their kids feeling entitled or not appreciating the value of money?

Robin Taub: Yeah. For parents of means, wealthy parents, that's a really big concern. If you talk to wealth managers like you guys, It's not like managing the money. It's like that their kids are prepared and that they're going to grow up with a sense of purpose and not a sense of entitlement. And that is the trick. Because especially if you're an entrepreneur or even an executive, someone who makes a lot of money and they work really hard for it and you want to enjoy the fruits of your labor. But at the same time your kids are accustomed to this really fancy lifestyle. And they don't necessarily appreciate what it costs and what it takes to earn it. So I think ... And in wealthy families kids may struggle to find a sense of purpose if like the parent or grandparent cast a shadow. And everyone needs purpose in their life. So I think to try and encourage them to find what it is that they're most passionate about and then follow that into their career to give them that sense of purpose. Other things we talked about like the importance of giving back and being involved in the community and helping others.

Research does show that making meaningful connections and serving others can really help you have a fulfilling life. I think also with money, money can engender dependency and most of us want our kids to be independent even if there is money in the background. So I think you want to talk to your kids about the difference between needs and want and then really emphasize gratitude and being appreciative of what they have. Like we talked about that earlier but just maybe making it a practice. A gratitude practice. Going around the table at dinner each week and sharing like a highlight or a small win that you're grateful for. Just to continue to put things into perspective. Do family philanthropy projects. Encourage them to work from a young age. Just really help them discovery what's going to give their life meaning and purpose. One of the stories I've read about in the news is about Abigail Disney. So I don't know if you guys know who she is but she is the great niece of Walt Disney. So her grandfather was Walt Disney's brother Roy. And she talks about how when the price of Disney stock quadrupled in the 1990s their family went from being comfortably upper middle class to like hugely wealthy and they had their own 737.

For her rather than ending up being entitled and spoiled she has really gone in the other direction. She's now an activist and she's often outspoken about Disney's employment practices. She has a podcast where she talks to what she calls good troublemakers about changing the world. And she's also a documentary filmmaker. So even though she's extremely wealthy and grew up with that family and could have gone a different direction, she found her purpose and is using her money. She's also like a huge philanthropist. She gives a lot of money away. So there's lots of good examples of children of very wealthy families who do end up leading productive and fulfilling lives but I think yeah, it could easily go the other way if there's just too much money sloshing around and there's a lot of dependency on the family.

Ben Felix: So you're a CPA. You have had a career in accounting I think and also in finance. Is that right?

Robin Taub: Yes. That's right. Early in my career I worked in accounting firms. I was in tax for a while. And then I worked at Citibank in derivatives marketing for five years. So that was really different too. And yeah, now I-

Ben Felix: So I-

Robin Taub: Doing this for a while.

Ben Felix: Yeah. I got to ask, how did you end up deciding to make the shift to being an author?

Robin Taub: It's funny because I was always good with words and with numbers. Usually people are either a numbers person or they're a language person but I was always good with both. And yeah, I've always enjoyed reading and writing. So 10 years ago when the book first came out, it was published by CPA Canada at that time and they were the ones who commissioned me, who asked me to write the book because they had done research on financial literacy and they found that parents were really struggling with it. And this was after the 2008 financial crisis. A lot of attention was being paid to financial literacy and maybe trying to help people have more knowledge and skills and confidence in this area. So that's how it began. They asked me to write this book. At the time I was like, "Hmm. That's an interesting challenge." I wasn't one of these people that was dying to write a book but I felt that I had the background and the experience because my kids at the time were 12 and 14. So I knew that I had been doing this with my kids and I felt like I could help other parents who aren't as comfortable with money and finances because of my background as I am.

And I could see that my kids were good with money and that they took it seriously and that even at that time it was paying off that I was having these conversations. So that's really what motivated it. Just to help other parents who may not feel they know where to start or how to go about it.

Ben Felix: Wow.

Cameron Passmore: Great. Our final question for you Robin. How do you define success in your life?

Robin Taub: Yeah. I thought about this after I reviewed your questions for today and I went thinking back to this program I did which was the co-active coaching training program. And I did it about 15 years ago and they had this tool that always stuck with me which was the wheel of life. And the wheel of life was a circle that had eight pie slices. And I'll tell you what those were in one second. So the idea is you sort of evaluate your life holistically. So it's not just one dimension, it's these eight different dimensions. And I think you want to aim to be feeling fulfilled and have high levels of satisfaction in all those areas. So that's really how I would define success. And here they are. Personal growth, physical environment, work and career, money. So those are just two out of eight. Spouse and partner, family and friends, fun and recreation. And then lastly, health and fitness. And actually I think I saw that there's other models where there's 10 pieces of pie but I think these eight really resonated with me. So I try to keep that in mind. I try to aim for high satisfaction in all those areas. It's not always going to be what you want it to be. As long as you're working towards it, I think that's the main thing.

Cameron Passmore: Wow.

Ben Felix: I like it.

Cameron Passmore: What a great answer.

Ben Felix: Yeah.

Robin Taub: Thanks.

Cameron Passmore: This has been a real treat Robin. Thanks so much for joining us and for the work you've done. I think this has been a great conversation that many people would get a lot of value out of so thanks for coming on.

Robin Taub: My pleasure. Thank you for having me and for asking such thoughtful questions.